Forum #1: Book 1 and 2: Relationships Compared

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  • #9605
    missloock
    Keymaster

    Compare and contrast the relationships between Kay and Arthur with those of Agravaine, Gawaine, Gaheris, and Gareth. Discuss upbringing, education, and family as you comment upon the character of the individuals in each set of brothers. Refer to at least ONE specific example that illustrates the relationship between EACH set. Why did T.H. White organize Book II to switch back and forth between England and Orkney? How do the two kingdoms come together at the end of Book II?

    • This topic was modified 7 years, 9 months ago by missloock.
    #9621

    Kay and Arthur have a brotherly relationship along with Arthur’s cousins Agravaine, Gawaine, Gaheris, and Gareth. Although the four brothers loved each other, there were also disagreements among them. For instance, the four brothers were not in agreement to kill the unicorn, which was supposedly meant to impress their mother as a gift. Agravaine was hasty and wanted to kill the unicorn while the others did not want to. Nevertheless, Agravaine persisted and eventually slaughtered the unicorn against his brothers’ wishes revealing one of the dynamics of tension between these brothers. Kay and Arthur, share similar characteristics to these four brothers, as Arthur is naïve and forgiving while Kay is both bossy and tough. While both brought up and mentored by a wizard, knights also surrounded both Kay and Arthur. They yearned to become knights, which is similar to the four brothers who also desired the conquests of knighthood. Although Kay and Arthur were raised as brothers, they were not of the same blood. Still having grown up together they accept it and are the best of friends who balance out each other’s personalities of grace with truth. Knowing the boundaries for each other’s feelings, Kay and Arthur have a harmonious relationship. Meanwhile, the four brothers are more aggressive towards each other, but also share sentimental moments reminiscing on moments with their mother, who also possesses magic like Merlyn. This is another similarity Kay and Arthur share with the four brothers. These two sets of boys grew up with magic, observing it all their lives. T.H. White jumps back and forth from England to Orkney in book 2 in order to display the parallels between Kay and Arthur, and the four brothers to the reader. At the end, the kingdoms unite through King Arthur and Queen Morgause because she had a baby with her half-brother. Thier son was named Mordred.
    Do you think, since there is such overt tension between the four brothers, they will become enemies or stay united together in the future? What about Arthur and Kay?

    #9624
    dchin
    Member

    Kay and Arthur were raised by Sir Ector. Kay was Sir Ector’s biological son and Arthur was his adopted. They shared a great bond, but they did have their quarrels. For example, Arthur and Kay share their adventure of meeting Robin Wood and beating Morgan Le Fay. On the other hand, they did fight on one instance and Kay received a bloody nose and Arthur got a black eye. Likewise, the orkney brothers (Agravaine, Gawaine, Gaheris, and Gareth) had their brotherly love and also fought against each other. The Orkney brothers were raised by their mother Queen Morgause. Their mother is a witch who practices magic. This could mirror Kay and Arthur’s tutor, Merlyn. The Orkney brothers all have one thing in common. They all love their mother. They also have their own feuds. During chapter 7, the boys try to please their mother by capturing a unicorn. Their blind love for their mother leads them to go on this hunt. Once they tie the virgin maid to the tree they come to a consensus to capture the unicorn if it presents no harm. Disregarding the prior commitment Agravaine goes to the unicorn and stabs it until it dies. Both sets of brothers share their similarities, but also have many drastic differences. Kay and Arthur are not as cruel as the Orkney brothers. The Orkney brothers want to kill and beat things. They beat their donkey’s on their walk at the beach. When St.Toirdealblach tells them stories about how wars were better when there were less people, the brothers only thought there would be people to slaughter. Even after they kill the unicorn, they still have no problem with dragging the head back and presenting it to their mother. In the end, each set has their own differences and parallels which make them the families they are. T.H. White wrote book two, The Queen of Air and Darkness, switching back and forth from England to Orkney because he wanted to show variety. He showed the two sides of the war and what is happening on the other side. Each showed their own attributes that made the story great. The two kingdoms come together in the end when Morgause and Arthur have an incestuous relationship and have a baby named Mordred. Although, Arthur does not know he is having a child with his half sister because Merlyn forgot to warn him. Do you think T.H. White named the Orkney brothers Agravaine, Gawaine, Gaheris, and Gareth on purpose? Why is Agravaine’s name the only one that doesnt start with a G?

    #9625
    dchin
    Member

    @amelia152016 I believe that the Orkney brothers will be the cause of their own demise. They could either break apart because of Agravaine wanting power or they could try and work as a team but end up disbanding. There is already a bunch of tension because of Gawaine almost killing Agravaine. On the topic of Kay and King Arthur, I believe Kay will stay as Arthur’s right hand. They’re bond has been strengthened through Merlyn’s teaching and both are very close to each other.

    #9626

    In The Once and Future King, Kay and Arthur had a great relationship as two brothers would have. They connected, but also had their difficulties. As an example, they both shared the love and interest in hawking. Throughout the novel they experience the adventures together and they both learned and lived with the presence of magic. Although they shared a great bond, they both had different personalities that balanced each other in a way. Arthur, once called Wart, was a kind, good hearted person while Kay, was a selfish, mean, and jealous person. Yet they had different personalities and had some difficulties in their relationship, they created a great bond. In addition, Agravaine, Gawaine, Gaheris, and Gareth had the same brotherly love as Kay and Arthur did. Although, they did fight more so then Kay and Arthur. For example, all four brothers loved their mother and just wanted to make her happy. To do so they decided to get her a unicorn. While they were trying to get their mother a unicorn they disagreed and fought weather to kill the unicorn or to bring it to their mother alive. Agravaine wanted to kill the unicorn while the others did not want such thing. Agravaine ended up killing the unicorn despite what his brothers had said. This shows the difficulties and the lack of agreement in their relationship. These two relationships had similar attributes but also had their differences. Kay and Arthurs relationship was more loving while Agravaine, Gawaine, Gaheris, and Gareths relationship was more brutal and what really connected the four brothers was making their mother happy. T.H. White organizes Book II to switch back and forth between England and Orkney to show the two sides in the war. T.H. White shows Arthur and Kays perspective, as well as the four brothers prospective. In the end of Book II the two kingdoms come together when King Arthur and Queen Morgause have a child named Mordred. Not knowing that they are related, Morgause is Arthur’s half-sister.
    How does the tone change between the two books? Why do you think the author did this?

    #9627

    @dchin, yes I do believe the author named the Orkney brothers on purpose. I think he named them all with a G except Agravaines because he is sort of the odd man out. He is the cruelest out of them all and he is usually the one not agreeing with the brothers. For example, he wanted to kill the unicorn while the others did not.

    #9631
    alexharakas
    Member

    The relationship of Agravaine, Gawaine, Gareth and Gaheris is similar to that of Kay and Arthur. Both sets of boys quarrel frequently, sometimes escalating to a physical brawl, but still share a deep bond of love for each other. However, the pairs of brothers have very different parental figures in their lives. Morgause is not an attentive mother to the boys of Orkney. In Chapter 1 of Book II, we see the boys whispering stories to each other while Morgause is in a separate room, out of boredom attempting to conjure an invisibility potion. The reader rarely sees her engage with her boys, while often Sir Ector spends time with Kay and Wart. Furthermore, Morgause gave up on making the invisibilty potion after several tries. This shows she is impatient and does not execute her tasks with determination. These qualities reveal that she is not invested in the lives of her boys. Because of their lack of a strong parental figure and their Gaelic heritage, the brothers of Orkney crave violence. They have many wrong ideas about the value of life and war. Similarly, Arthur is scolded by Merlin in Chapter 2 of Book II because his insensitivity to the lasting impacts of war. Kay’s understanding of war is also questioned by Merlin in Chapter 3 of Book II. Kay and Gawaine were raised to have prestigious positions in their kingdoms. As a child, Arthur always had to live in the shadow of Kay’s impending greatness which put a strain on their relationship. Gawaine was the leader of his brothers, and led them in violent acts such as beating the donkey in Chapter 5 of Book II. Lighthearted rivalry is most prevalent between Kay and Arthur, while the Orkney boys fight and show violence because they have been neglected by their parents. In Chapter 9 of Book I, Kay spitefully remarks that Merlin does not send him on adventures as he does with Arthur. Despite the nature of that comment, Arthur asks Merlin to grant Kay with an expedition. Arthur shows love to Kay despite his haughty attitude. While in Chapter 9 of Book II, a quarrel between the Orkney boys ends in Gawaine strangling Agravaine. T.H. White switches back and forth from Orkney to England because he is foreshadowing the connection between the two kingdoms. The kingdoms ultimately unite because of Mordred, the son of Morgause and her half brother King Arthur. How did you see foreshadowing throughout Book II in regards to the filial relation between Arthur and Morgause? How does this foreshadowing compare to the foreshadowing of Arthur’s kingship in Book I?

    #9632
    alexharakas
    Member

    @angelicastaneda
    The tone of Book I is more lighthearted and childlike. Merlin’s lessons for Arthur consist of discovery through enchanting experiences such as becoming a fish. Kay and Arthur go on adventures together, accompanying Robin Hood and his me. Upon the ending of Book I and the realization of Arthur’s kingship, life becomes less simplistic for Arthur and he has many obligations. The second book is more serious, and even more scandalous with the incestuous relationship between Queen Morgause and Queen Arthur. I think the author did this to express the tension of maturity and of moving into adulthood from childhood.I expect the following books will continue to increase in seriousness and complications.

    #9635

    @dchin In the book, Once and Future Kings, it says that they were all named with a ‘G’ in their names because it made it easier for the Queen Morgause to remember who her kids were. “If you happen to be Queen Morgause and had four children, you put a G in all their names (Gawaine, Agrivaine, Gaheris, and Gareth) -and, naturally if your brothers happened to be called Ban or Bors, you were doomed to be called Gwenbors yourself. It made it easier to remember who you were” (White 319)

    #9639
    dchin
    Member

    @angelicacastaneda I believe the tones in the second book were a lot darker. There were more murders and more blood. The first book was a fun light-hearted story. It tells the tale of merlin changing wart into numerous animals. I believe the tones changing between the books is a way of T.H. White showing how Arthur is maturing. The first book progresses into the second book in a more serious tone.

    #9646
    alexharakas
    Member

    @amelia152016
    I agree that the Orkney boys will be the demise of each other. They love each other, but fealty is not their strong suit. Kay is not mentioned frequently in Book II as he was in Book I. I am also skeptical about his loyalty.I think he has a good heart but is easy to give into a selfish action. At the end of Book I, Kay takes credit for pulling the sword out of the stone. He soon rectifies his decision, but I cannot help wondering if this is foreshadowing of future infidelity.

    #9649

    In Book II, the story switches back and forth between Orkney and England to emphasize the similarities and differences between Arthur and his cousins. Arthur grew up in a countryside with his adopted father and brother, Sir Ector and Kay. Arthur and Kay always wanted to make their father proud. When they embarked on an adventure with Robin Hood, Kay wanted to bring home the head of the beast he had slayed to show his father what he had accomplished. Similarly, the Orkney brothers always wanted accreditation from their mother, Queen Morgause. The boys thought that if they killed a unicorn and brought it to their mother, they would finally get noticed. However, all they received was a beating. Agravine, Gawaine, Gaheris, and Gareth were neglected by their mother. In result, the boys went to find refuge with St. Toirdelbhach. St Toirdelbhach, taught the boys how to read and write, and shared war stories on occasion. In contrast, Sir Ector was a wonderful father who loved his sons and cared for them both. As they grew up, Sir Ector hired Merlyn to be their tutor. Merlyn taught the boys about magic, and would often turn Arthur into different animals. Everything Merlyn did was to prepare Arthur for when he became King. Arthur and Kay’s relationship was very similar to the Orkney brothers’. They loved each other even though they would have disagreements occasionally. Both Kingdoms were reunited in the end of Book II as a result of Arthur sleeping with his half-sister, Queen Morgause. Why do you think both Arthur and his cousins yearned for attention? How do you think this will affect their lives in the future?

    #9658

    @taylornicholas13, I think a lot of people even today seek for attention to try and get noticed by others. Arthur and his cousins seek for attention to be praised by others. Arthur’s cousins killed the unicorn to get praise from their mother and Arthur and Kay just always wanted to make their father proud. Because of mans greediness, I think in the future this might bring tension.

    #9660

    Both Kay and Arthur’s relationship and Agravine, Gawaine, Gaheris, and Gareth’s relationships are structured around the fact that each group depended on one another to overcome hardships in their upbringing; however, they differ in that Kay and Arthur’s relationship becomes chaotic when Arthur unexpectedly inherits the throne, while the brothers from Orkney bond over their desire to please their mother, the queen. In “The Sword and the Stone,” Arthur stands up for Kay to Merlyn when Kay feels left out since Merlyn only transforms Arthur into animals during his “tutoring” (White 88). In “The Queen of Air and Darkness,” the brothers of Orkney ally over the fact that they all want to avenge their family by feuding with the Kings of England after Gawaine inspires them with the story of their grandmother, Igraine (White 219).
    In Book II, WHite switches the subject of the story between Orkney and England to amplify the feuding between the rival families.
    The two kingdoms unite at the end of Book II when it is revealed that Morgause is actually Arthur’s half-sister and that the brothers from Orkney are his nephews, meaning that they all share the same bloodline, resolving the desire to feud any further (White 312).
    Question 1: Why does Merlyn let Kay think that he is going to be king, when he knows that it will be Arthur?
    Question 2: When Arthur realizes that he is fated to be king, does he realize Merlyn’s intentions in only transforming Arthur during his “tutoring?”

    #9663
    hallegj
    Member

    Kay and Arthur have a relationship similar to that of most brother’s today. They are both brought up by Sir Ector, with Merlyn as their educator. They tended to get along quite nicely, but at certain times jealousy takes over and a fight breaks out. For example, Kay becomes jealous towards Arthur because Merlyn does not let him experience the things he lets Arthur experience. As a result, the two brothers get into a physical fight, and both are left with minor injuries. Although the two brothers get into multiple fights, they stand up for each other when it is most needed. In the same way, the Orkney brothers have a good brotherly relationship, but they also get into many of their own disagreements. The four brothers are raised by their mother Morgause, who is a witch. Morgause is an evil woman, and she does not give much attention to her sons. In result, her sons do whatever they can to gain her attention. For instance, the brothers go out one day and say to each other, “And then, when we have caught the unicorn which is wanted, we will bring it home in triumph and give it to our mother!” (White 254). Although they are in agreement about pleasing their mother by giving her the unicorn, they are not all in agreement about killing the unicorn. However, since Agravaine feels as if he should be in charge, he kills the unicorn without his brothers’ consent. The most prominent difference between Kay and Arthur and the Orkney brothers is their upbringing. While Kay and Arthur are brought up by their loving father, Sir Ector, the Orkney brothers are raised by their neglecting mother, Queen Morgause. Since Kay and Arthur are rightfully raised, they seem to be more controlled and successful than the Orkney brothers in Books 1 and 2. In these books, T.H. White jumps back and forth between England and Orkney to show the parallels between Kay and Arthur and the Orkney brothers. In the end of Book 2 the two kingdoms come together because Queen Morgause and King Arthur commit incest and have a son named Mordred. Why do you think Merlyn spent time tutoring Kay if he knew all along that Arthur would be king? Do you think Kay becoming a knight is going to affect the story later on?

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by hallegj.
    #9665
    hallegj
    Member

    @taylornicholas13 I believe that Arthur and his cousins sought attention because it is in the human nature, and they wanted to become great. I think that the Orkney brothers especially sought for attention because they did not receive any from their mother. Their seeking for attention might affect them in the future if they get to wrapped up in it.

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 8 months ago by hallegj.
    #9667
    hallegj
    Member

    @amelia152016 I think that the Orkney brothers will stay united despite the overt tension because although they get into fights, they need each other because of the fact that their mom neglects them. On the other hand I think that Kay might betray Arthur since Arthur got to become king and for the most part Arthur gets more attention than Kay.

    #9668

    @hallegj I think maybe Merlyn tutored Kay the whole time knowing that Arthur would be king because he probably didn’t know how to tell Kay that Arthur would take his place. In my opinion, I feel that Kay being a knight and Arthur as King would work rather well. It may be difficult at first for Kay; but he and his brother were raised right. I see Kay and Arthur’s brotherly love for each other is too strong to be broken.

    #9669

    @taylornicholas13 I think that Arthur and his cousins all seeked attention from their father/mother because they all wanted to feel honored. In this time honoring your family was everything. This will affect their lives in the future in the way that they will continue to seek a sense of honor and appreciation.

    #9670

    Kay and Arthur, the sons of Sir Ector, and the Orkney brothers ( Agravaine, Gawaine, Gaheris, and Gareth) dislplay brotherly love in two different forms. Kay and Arthur are two well raised boys who feed off of each other’s good vibes. They cope with one another the way brothers should. Kay is the biological son of Sir Ector; while Arthur was adopted. On the other hand, the Orkney brothers also love each other, but have their own minor differences as well. Their mother is the the one thing that unites the four brothers together. An example of this is when the Orkney brothers capture a unicorn. All the brothers but Agravaine intended to bring the unicorn to their mother as a gift. On the other hand, Agravaine makes a hasty decision on his own and stabs the helpless unicorn over and over again until death. This shows that the brothers may love another, but aren’t perfect either. T.H. White went back and forth between England and Orkney to show the reader the differences between the two sets of brothers. In the end of the book, the two kingdoms come together through Arthur and queen Morgause who had a baby together. At this time, they did not know that they were actually half-siblings. Their baby was then named Mordred. Do you think that Arthur was might have been unhappy that no one told him he and Morgause were half-siblings? Should there have been some sort of punishment for Arthur and Morgause’s intercourse from opposite kingdoms?

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