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“My intellectual friends of those days, between the wars used to say to me: ‘Why on earth do you waste your talents feeding wild birds with dead rabbits?’ Was this a man’s work today? They urged that I was an intelligent fellow: I must be serious. ‘To arms!’ they cried. ‘Down with the Fascists, and Long Uve the People!’ Thus, as we have seen, everybody was to fly to anns, and shoot the people. It was useless to tell them that I would rather shoot rabbits than people.”
T. H. White, The Goshawk (1951)
How does this quote from “The Goshawk” exemplify the entire novel of “A Once and Future King”? Is it a true statement? or a false statement? Why? Use examples from the entire novel.
The quote does exemplify the novel because there are characters that would rather shoot rabbits than people. There are others that do not have a problem with fighting or killing fellow human beings. Arthur is a man that would rather shoot rabbits than people. Conversely, as a child, Arthur doesn’t mind the idea of fighting and wars. He says to Lyo-lyok, “‘I like fighting’” (White 170). He goes on to mention it being knightly. Arthur’s brother is going to become a knight. Arthur is naïve to the fact that lives are lost in wars. He doesn’t realize the price of war is great. After winning a battle as king, he declares that “‘it was a jolly battle, and I won it myself, and it was fun’” (White 223). Arthur still is a bit naïve as he was when he was growing up. Battles or war should not be taken lightly. Merlyn realizes this. He scolds the King by saying, “‘What is all this chivalry, anyway? It simply means being rich enough to have a castle and a suit of armour, and then, when you have them, you make the Saxon people do as you like. The only risk you run is of getting a few bruises if you happen to come across another knight… But look at the country. Look at the barns burnt, and dead men’s legs sticking out of ponds, and horses with swelled bellies by the roadside, and mills falling down, and money buried, and nobody daring to walk abroad with gold or ornaments on their clothes… And then you talk about a battle being fun!” (White 224-225). Merlyn reproaches Arthur for his casual view on battles and death; he does not believe in wars at all! Following the monologue by Merlyn, Arthur changes his view on battle. He no longer sees it as a casual pastime. Arthur now feels that killing people as well as being a tyrant is wrong. He establishes the Knights of the Round Table with the purpose of might for right. Battles (might) should only be fought for right. Other knights don’t feel that way. They do not have a problem with killing other people. The Orkneys are an example of this. When Agravaine saw his mother in bed with Sir Lamorak, he cut off her head. In a fit of rage, Gawaine, Mordred and Agravaine also go after Sir Lamorak. They stabbed him in the back when they found him. The boys killed their mother and the knight they found her with. They did not refrain from acting upon their anger. Mordred has other episodes of anger. He establishes a new order called the Thrasners. They fight against King Arthur in his final battle at the end of the book. Mordred is a very angry person. He feels hate and resentment toward his father, King Arthur. He wants to have him killed. He is definitely a person that does not mind killing fellow humans. I believe the statement to be true. There are characters that have both perspectives. What other characters do you believe have a “shoot people” mentality? Or, which ones have a “shoot rabbits” mentality?
I also believe that the quote from \”The Goshawk\” by T.H. White exemplifies part of \”The Once and Future King.\” Like Lizzie said, some characters enjoy killing people and \”shooting\” them. Others despise it. Arthur did think highly of battle when he was young. When he was older, however, he wanted to put a top to killing people and shooting them. This is plainly obvious when he tell Lancelot: \”It is about knights\”…\”I want to have an Order of Chivalry, like the Order of the Garter, which goes about fighting against Might\” (White 328). Here, Arthur does not want any murdering or killing to be taking place. In fact, that is the whole reason why he even started the Round Table in the first place. He wanted an order of chivalry that would stop Might from prevailing against those who are weaker. So, for Arthur, the statement from \”The Goshawk\” is true. King Pellinore, the man whom Arthur met when he was only a boy living with Sir Ector, would prefer to neither kill rabbits nor people. When he sees the Questing Beast wounded in the Forest Sauvage, he starts screaming at everyone, telling them to\”…do something. Fetch another pole so that we can carry old Glatisant home. Now, then, Ector, haven\’t you got any sense? We must just carry him home and put him in front of the kitchen fire. Send somebody on to make some bread and milk. And you, Twyti, or whatever you choose to call yourself, stop fiddling with that trumpet of yours and run ahead to get some blankets warmed\” (White 153). Clearly, King Pellinore is the type of character who wouldn\’t hurt a fly. So, King Pellinore would not kill a beast nor a human. This is also evident when King Pellinore and Sir Grummore Grummorsum were jousting with one another while Merlyn and The Wart (Arthur) were watching. While Pellinore had the advantage over Grummor Grummorsom, he declares \”\’Well, I shall just cut you head off.\’ \’I don\’t care…Go on,\’ said Sir Grummore. \’I dare you to.\’ The King lowered his sword and said, \’Oh, I say, do yield, please\’\” (White 66). Here, while King Pellinore clearly can cut off Grummore\’s head, he doesn\’t. He would rather have Sir Grummore Grummorsum yield than kill him. Thus, the quote from the Goshawk also applies to King Pellinore; it is true regarding King Pellinore. Other characters throughout \”The Once and Future King,\” however, do not mind killing people, and would kill them. One such character is Uther Pendragon, Arthur\’s father. Merlyn declares that \”Uther\”…\”your lamented father, was an aggressor…Your father settled the unfortunate Saxons long ago, however brutally he did it, and when a great many years have passed one ought to be ready to accept a status quo\” (White 235). Thus, Uther Pendragon is an agressor; that is, he kills people to take over their land. Therefore, Uther Pendragon would not rather kill a rabbit than shoot a person. On the contrary, he would rather shoot a person and take their land/possessions, than kill a rabbit. Thus, the quote from the Goshawk is false regarding Uther Pendragon. Finally, another character who doesn\’t mind murdering is Agravaine. There are numerous times throughout the novel where Agravaine murders people, including his mother. He killed Sir Lamorak for having a relationship with his mother, Queen Morgause. Even from the beginning, Agravaine didn\’t seem to have a problem with killing. When they were children, he and Gawaine got into a brawl. Agravaine \”…was the weaker of the two and he was afraid of pain. As he went down, he had drawn his dirk upon his brother\” (White 283). So, the quote from the Goshawk can be considered both true and false, depending on to whom the quote refers to throughout \”The Once and Future King.\”
@Josh
Your quotes are spot-on. I agree with your analysis of the forum. I didn\’t think of Uther Pendragon as a \”shooter of people,\” but you are correct. What kind of person do you think Sir Grummore Grummursum is?@lizlar
You are totally right with with the Orkney brothers, but i think Sir Lancelot could somewhat fall into that category of \”shoot rabbit\” mentality. Although he usually refrains from killing when possible and is humble and kind there are instances where he contradicts himself. Like when something concerns Guenevere he tends to kill more carelessly. He killed Sir meleance in a joust after he accuses Guenevere of being unfaithful and later on when Guenevere is to be burn at the stake he goes in and kills all the knights including Gareth and Gaucherie, whom were unarmed and had no armor on while he was blindly swinging his sword. so to some extend I would say Lancelot when involved with Guenevere takes on a \”shoot rabbit\” mentality@aliciadwyer
He killed all those people when he was discovered with Guenever in her room though. Also, he killed all those knights to rescue Guenever. Maybe he has a \”shoot people\” mentality when it comes to Guenever? I\’d say it depends.@joshB I agree with your statement that it depends on whom the quote refers to. T.H. White shows both ends of an argument throughout his book, time and time again. This argument is true and false, because, like you said, King Pellinor would rather kill a rabbit, but on the other hand King Uther would rather kill and oppress people to take their possessions.
@aliciadwyer @lizlar, I agree with both of you, you both make great arguments towards Lancelot\’s case. With Lancelot, his mentality is based on the situation at hand, and makes his decisions based on that. He protects those he loves, and would kill anybody trying to harm his love, but also spares other knights, and has them surrender rather than killing them. So I believe that Lancelot makes his judgments based on the different situations.
Lizzie, you are absolutely right. King Arthur is naive as a child in his ideals of wars and battles. Even when he is grown up, he still takes battles and wars lightly (in the beginning). You are correct, and I agree! I also agree with you about Mordred, Gawaine, and Agravaine being those who don\’t mind shooting people. You\’re points were all great! As for you questions, like I stated, I believe that Uther Pendragon is one of those \”people-shooters.\” Furthermore, like Daniel, you, and Alicia were all saying, Lancelot could either be a \”rabbit shooter\” or a \”people shooter.\” Arthur, in the end, becomes a rabbit-shooter rather than a person-shooter.
This quote is exemplifies the novel in both sowing the characters that have the mindset of \”shoot the rabbit\” and those that have the other mindset of \”shoot the people\”. T.H. White demonstrates the mentality of \”shoot the rabbit\” through portraying King Pellinore as a knight with loving compassionate heart. This is shown during his battle with Sir Grummore, \”\\\’Well, I shall just cut you head off.\\\’ \\\’I don\\\’t care…Go on,\\\’ said Sir Grummore. \\\’I dare you to.\\\’ The King lowered his sword and said, \\\’Oh, I say, do yield, please\\\’\\\” (White 66). This demonstrates that King Pellinore\’s wants to spare a man\’s life. rather than to take one. On the contrary, T.H. White also shows the other mentality, by telling of ruthlessness King Uther Pendragon. This is a man that \”shoots people\” for his own prosperity. In the novel, it tells of King Pendragon killing the Earl of Cornwall to take his wife to be his own. Merlyn talked about King Pendragon as an aggressor, \”your lamented father, was an aggressor…Your father settled the unfortunate Saxons long ago, however brutally he did it\” (White 235). Men died at his hands, but he did not care. King Pellinore and King Pendragon is a perfect example of comparing both ends of this quote. The quote from \”The Goshawk\” applies itself in the novel to both mentalities. Do you think these mindsets apply to the women in the novel? What mindset would Queen Guenever fall under? What about Elaine?
This quote from “The Goshawk” very much illustrates “The Once and Future King.” This quote reminds me of how Arthur thought throughout his lifetime. During Arthur’s childhood he thought that fighting in wars was a very noble thing, but never thought about the repercussions of fighting. In chapter 18 Merlyn turns Arthur into a geese to understand more about fighting in battles. Arthur is flying with Lyo- Lyok and he talks about how fighting in a war is exciting. When Lyo- Lyok hears this she responds to him by saying, “What a horrible mind you must have!” (White 171) Arthur keeps this same mindset of war into his first couple years of being King. After a battle with the Orkneys Arthur is talking to Merlyn and says, “It was a jolly battle, and I won it myself, and it was fun.” (White 227) Once Arthur says this Merlyn says, “The tally was more than seven hundred. They were all kerns, of course. None of the knights were injured, except the one who broke his leg falling off the horse.” (White 227) Merlyn says this to show what Arthur is sounding like when he says “war is fun.” During this time of Arthur’s lifetime he has a “shoot people” mindset. He doesn’t really care for the deaths of the people under him. Once Arthur talks to Merlyn his mentality changes, he realizes that the taking of human life is horrible, and should be put to a stop. As soon as Arthur comprehends this he devotes the rest of his reign as King to bring peace in England.
@ Daniel
I agree with you when you talk about Uther Pendragon and Sir Pellionore. They are both perfect examples of the \”shoot a rabbit\” and \”shoot a person\” type of individual. I don\’t think this principal applies to the women in this novel though.This quote from The Goshawk by T.H. White seems to have uncanny similarity to a major topic in The Once and Future King: War. As a youth, the Wart had great interest in hunting and battling. He would go into the Forest Sauvage with companions and shoot roaming hares some days, and other days he’d train in the art of jousting. As a boy of this age, Arthur had always dreamt of being the best knight ever. He wished to be the one who would joust to the death for a fair lady, but then would spare the opposing knight and send the couple on their way. We see this childish fantasy in Arthur in his early years of the throne. In fact, when Arthur is conversing with Merlyn, we see that Arthur has a hard time seeing the difference between humans and rabbits on the battlefield: “Look at the way Lot of Orkney ran, after I had begun to use Excalibur … As soon as I drew my trusty sword they ran like rabbits” (White 221). After this scene, Merlyn exposes to Arthur that as fun as the battle may have been, over seven hundred Englishmen had lost their lives in the battle. After this conversation, Arthur seems to take an air of seriousness when addressing the concept of battle. In reference to this very conversation, we find Arthur in later days talking to Merlyn and some others, saying “ ‘I could only think,’ said he, beginning to blush, ‘I could only think that I – that we – that he – that he wanted me to win them for a reason … the reason was that if I could be the master of my kingdom by winning these two battles, I could stop them afterwards and do something about the business of Might’ ” (White 247). This shows that Arthur has progressed greatly on the matter of violence. He now believes that if war is to be used for anything, it’s to be used to put an end to itself. This is the point at which Arthur develops his famous concept of “Might over Right.” This is the time that Arthur returns to the side of bunny-hunters. Do you think that Arthur’s approach on war is tactical? Has it proven successful so far?
I think that this quote exemplifies Arthur\’s idea of using might for right. In book 3 Lancelot asks the question, \”the knight are to go on quest, aren\’t they, to fight against might?\” (354 white). In this way I believe the statement to be true. Just because you have the ability does not always mean that you should.
@alexgellespie
I agree with what you said about Arthur not thinking of the repercussions of war. In many ways I think that the mans friends from the quote are the same way that the young wart used to be. They both do not feel any remorse about war. On the other hand the man who wrote the quote is very much the same way as the older and wiser Arthur.I think that this quote from T.H. White describes The Once and Future King very well. Authors often write some of their own ideals into their novels, and I think that is what he did when he wrote the war between Lancelot and King Arthur. The war is the embodiment of the quote he said in The Goshawk. The war to Lancelot is this: \”I have to sally out with my knights and rush about pretending to strike, and perhaps Arthur will be urged against me, or Gawaine will come, and then I have to cover myself with the shield, and defend myself, and I mustn\’t hit back. The men notice it, and say that by not exerting myself I am prolonging the war, which makes it worse for them\” (White 625). This whole quote from Lancelot basically describes exactly what T.H. White was talking about. Lancelot\’s men in this scenario are the intellectual friends T.H. White talked about. They both urge them to fight, even though all T.H. White and Lancelot want is to not harm anyone and to have peace. Gawaine further connects the quote by T.H. White to the book when he says: \”Why canna [Lancelot] kill me, then? I begged him to have done it\” (White 653). This shows the extent to which Lancelot is resisting the idea of killing people who he knows have a good reason to kill him. If Lancelot killed him, he would be victorious in the war between the King and him, but he refuses to do this because he believes that there is no honor in killing Gawaine. He prefers not to kill Gawaine, just how T.H White prefers not to kill anyone in the war, although they are urged by their friends. Lancelot\’s and T.H. White\’s personalities are very similar in this regard, and I believe that T.H. White wrote Lancelot\’s character, and many other characters in his book, like this on purpose, to show what he, the author, believes to be right. My question is: Do you think that Lancelot and T.H. White are hurting their fellow men by not fighting when they are urged to?
I do not think that either mindset apply to the women in the novel, because to my knowledge, Elaine and Guenever have never killed anyone. They can\’t fall under the \”shoot the rabbit\” mindset, because they have never even shown the desire to kill anyone. To have any of the mindsets, you must first have to have tried to kill anyone. It is whether or not you go all the way with the killing to be determined what mindset you are.
@ Danielserrato
The analogy you made about Uther Pendragon and pellonore was very comparable I think that the women in the story fall under a different category all together.I wouldn\’t say that this type of classification would apply to women. The Once and Future King is based in a time when women didn\’t play a large role in society. They were simply the damsels to save and the mistresses to protect. However, if they were subject to this arrangement, I would say that Guinevere is the bunny-slayer, and Elaine (#TeamElaine) is the serial-killer. My justification for this is that Guinevere seems to be all talk. She goes around openly committing treason to the king, yet won\’t talk Lancelot up on his offer of running away together. She seems very passive. At the same time, Elaine is the one who actively tricked Lancelot into sleeping with her multiple times. She doesn\’t care for the feelings of anyone, save herself and Lancelot. She\’s the aggressive one. However I must restate, neither of them fall into the category of killing anything. Society in that time just didn\’t work like that. Does anyone beg to differ?
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