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The main difference between these brothers begins on how they were raised up, the environment they were used to. Kay and Arthur were raised in a masculine environment by Kay’s father, Sir Ector, whereas the Orkney brothers were raised in a feminine environment by their mother. In book one, Kay was a boastful boy with little regard for other’s feeling because he was the biological son of Sir Ector; Kay was the one to be king whereas Arthur was to be his squire. On the contrast, the Orkney brothers treated each other equally because they were the same in the eyes of their mother. A specific example of Kay being less caring than Arthur was when they lost the hawk. Arthur worried that Cully’s careaker, Hob, will be disappointed to see his hard work gone to waste. Instead of helping, Kay stormed off saying Hob was just a servant. In Book II, the reason I believe T.H. White switches back between England and Orkney is to show readers two separate point of views, two separate kingdoms. He wanted readers to see the full picture of how they would come together eventually. They would come together eventually when Arthur and Morgause had Mordred. So now my question is: would Kay and Arthur’s relationship be different if they were just given a mother like Agravaine, Gawaine, Gaheris, and Gareth?
@danielhendrickson
Morgause affections flip so quickly because she has taught herself to constantly look around at any man she can get her eyes (or hands) on. This trait is shown in how she treats King Pellinore and Sir Grummore with spite after they don’t treat her with special love and attention when they come to her land by way of a magic ship. What was Morgause always seeking?@aubreypem
Morgause seduced Arthur because she wants attention and love. Throughout the book she was unsatisfied and looked for fulfillment in love, whether it was a failed attempt to seduce Lancelot or a success with King Pellinore’s son, Lamorak, she wanted to feel desired. Was this trait passed on to her children?Arthur and Kay’s relationship resembled more of a leader-and-follower kind of thing. There seem to be two main things that affected this: the fact that there was only two of them, and the age difference.
However, there were four Orkney children, and they seemed more like siblings than Wart and Kay. They seemed closer, and it could be because of the common bond they shared, which was adoration of their mother. They wanted her to be pleased with them, which once led to the unicorn episode.
Because Kay was older than Wart, he seemed to boss him around sometimes. Another reason could be that Wart wasn’t really related to Kay.If the two groups were switched environments, Kay and Wart being children of Morgause and the Orkneys were to live with Sir Ector, how do you think it would have affected them?
I think this trait is passed on. One of the greatest literary themes in the world is … Sins of the Father affect the son. Look at Adam and Eve, Romeo and Juliet…I don’t think the father/son, mother/child characters of this novel are any different. I think the larger question is… How will the children deal with the sin? In the same way as their parents? Or since they “hate” their parents and how they “reacted”, respond in the opposite way but gain the same result?
Kay and Arthur were always close to one another, similar to the brothers of Orkney. However, Kay and Arthur were brought in a castle, in the love and comfort of Sir Ector, whereas the brothers of Orkney were always striving for the attention of their cruel mother. Education was always the main priority in the childhood of Kay and Arthur and so the best tutors were always handed to them, but for Agravaine, Gawaine, Gaheris, and Gareth, it was something they had to go out and find themselves. The thing about Kay, though, was that he was very proud, even from youth as seen when he shot the griffin and made sure everybody, especially Sir Ector knew, whilst he gave no credit to Arthur. However, the brothers of Orkney were very tight knit with each other, and they worked together to achieve the things they all wanted, taking equal credit and equal blame. White switched between he two kingdoms to show that, simultaneously, both stories were unfolding for the reader and to create diversity of perspective; eventually bringing the two separate stories through Arthur’s downfall with Morgause. Do you think that Agravaine, Gawaine, Gaheris, and Gareth would still be as close without needing to vie for the attention of their mother? Do you think that Kay and Arthur would be closer if they worked together to achieve the same goal, like the brothers did?
@mmegsj Good question! I thought all of the transitions were very smooth, and that had to do with the way that White writes and how he made up the plot. It was practical, allowing for a more dramatic build up to book 3, not disrupting the novel’s flow at all. Do you think it would have been any different if White wrote the entire story of Kay and Wart in one book, and then the story of the brothers of Orkney in another, and still had the tie together in book 3?
@sofiahmckeown nice thought! The Orkney brothers did have a stronger relationship than Kay and Wart. This, I believe, is mostly circumstance and the individual sets of brothers reactions to them. Kay and Arthur grew up the most privileged, but because he did not receive all the attention from Sir Ector, Kay’s pride led him to an animosity and haughtiness toward Wart. However, the Orkney brothers, instead of fighting because of it, bonded through their mutual craving for attention from their mother. They did not receive love or affection from any other place except each other.The Orkney brothers are very close to each other and have many close moments with each other while trying to please their mother. Kay and Arthur can be close at times but Kay still treats Arthur as though he is below him because Kay is Sir Ectors real son. One example that shows the Orkney brothers are close with each other is how they always strive for adventures together. they worked together to kill a unicorn so that they could try and please their mother. Where as Kay and Arthur would often get into fights but also had their fair share of adventure. The upbringing and family of both sides is different in the fact that Kay and Arthur have no mother figure while the Orkney boys have both a mother and father figure. Education was stronger on Arthurs side as well. I believe that the book goes back and forth between both kingdoms in book two because he was showing both sides before and after the war and how things would come together. In the end the two kingdoms came together by Morgause enchanting Arthur which led to the birth of Mordred. My question is: Merlin told Arthur that he would marry Gwen, since he is now under an enchantment of love, do you still think he will end up with Gwen in the end?
@allycastaneda4
I believe that the Orkney brothers striving for their mother affection and attention definitely made them a lot closer as siblings. there were also other things that made their relationships strong but their mother was a key piece of the puzzle.The relationship of Kay and Arthur varies very much from that of the Orkney brothers. Kay and Arthur, for the most part, are not very close. Since Arthur is not the true son of Sir Ector, Kay treats him differently; Kay will soon be knighted whereas Arthur was destined to be his squire. In comparison, the Orkney brothers are very close; they have a natural camaraderie. Also, the boys are closer together because of their lack of relationship with their mother. They had to come and work together to catch and kill a unicorn just to try and get her to pay attention to them.
@amandaatraann I do believe that they would not have been as close if they did not need to earn her love, affection, and respect. Things like that and just hardships in general tend to bring people together.
I think that T.H. White wrote the way he did comparing the boys to show how life varied throughout the world in that time. In the end, the stories came together when we realized that King Arthur was the uncle of the Orkney boys and the father of Mordred, after he slept with his half-sister, Morgause. To compare the families, their upbringing affects many things: the way the siblings interact and even their outlook on life. The way they were educated affects their life opportunities as well. Arthur, being instructed by Merlyn, was taught many things that the Orkney boys were not because they heard and learned from St. Toirdealbhach. Do you think that Gawaine, Agravaine, Gaheris, and Gareth’s opportunities would have changed if they had had a different tutor, like Arthur and Merlyn?@christadiaz111
I think that, although Arthur is now aware of his future with Gwen, he will still end up with her. Merlyn lives life in reverse, meaning he knows all that will happen before it actually does. Merlin cannot have been mistaken. Therefore, their relationship is enevitable, despite Arthur’s new found knowledge of it.The Wart, or Arthur, and Kay’s relationship greatly contrasts the relationship of the four brothers’; Gawaine, Gaheris, Gareth, and Algravaine. Since Kay was the biological son of Sir Ector, unlike the Wart, Kay always tried to be the more superior of the two. The Wart possessed a good nature and a submissive spirit, whereas Kay was more of a spoiled brat. A good example to show the relationship of the two brothers was when they went hawking. Even though Art was better at handling the hawk, Kay insisted on holding Cully, the hawk, and subsequently lost it. Kay is rarely punished since he was bound to inherit his father’s land/title. Chivalry and math was included in their lessons. Later on, the Wart is taken by a magician named Merlyn who teaches him important lessons through using his magic to turn the Wart into animals. The four brothers, Gawaine, Gaheris, Gareth, and Agravaine, were a different thing. They had a close relationship with each other, and only had a mom in which they all highly looked up to. Their dad, King Lot, wasn’t around as much. The four brothers were tight-knit, but also relished in violence. A good example was when they argued that bigger battles were good since there were more people to kill.
Book Two switches back to show the contrast between the two kingdoms, and to highlight the personalities of Morgause and her children, as well as Arthur’s kingdom. The kingdoms come together when Morgause sleeps with her half-brother, Arthur, and their son Mordred is born.The women, although known to possess kind natures and wise minds, were shown as borderline despicable while the focus was on the men. What was T.H. White trying to convey? Did he want to point out the flaws and the humanness of the characters? Or did he want the focus on the men, such as King Arthur and Lancelot, and the way the women greatly affected their lives and manipulated them?
I think that he learned the most as the badger. Throughout his entire childhood he was the hedgehog, no he had power and figured he should use might for right after he tormented the hedgehog. This was his first time as a ruler and he learned to be gentle and kind. @mmegsj
Very well put, and I believe that if Arthur and Kay worked together as did the Orkney’s and Kay saw Arthur as an equal then Merlin could’ve shared all of Arthur’s adventures with him. Kay might even been in Lancelot’s position and then Camelot might not have fell as it did.@amandaatraann
The most obvious difference between the dissimilar sets of siblings is their demeanor and interactions with and around each other. For the most part, Gawaine, Agravaine, Gaheris, and Gareth were devoted to each other. For example, Gawaine, Agravaine, Gaheris, and Gareth brought home a unicorn together to impress their mother. However, as children, Kay and Arthur remained substantially distant. Kay’s ego potentially got in the way of them having a close knit bond as children. For instance, when Arthur took the sword out of the stone to give to Kay, Kay claimed that it was he who released it from the stone which would result to Kay becoming the King of England. Furthermore, Gawaine, Agravaine, Gaheris, and Gareth were raised by their negligent mother who unquestionably had various ethical concerns. On the contrary, Kay and Arthur were raised by Sir Ector and had Merlyn who encouraged sensible teachings.
The objective of T.H. White’s process of switching back and forth between England and Orkney was to show an assorted perspective of Arthur’s kingdom and of Morgause’s kingdom because of what the ultimate outcome would be; the two kingdoms knit together when Arthur sleeps with his half-sister Morgause and ends up with a son.
My question is: If Morgause had good virtue and wasn’t Arthur’s half-sister, how would it have affected the situation? Would have sleeping together been a wise choice in that circumstance?@rochelmgo Kay and Arthur’s relationship would be different if they were given a mother like Agravaine, Gawaine, Gaheris, and Gareth because the environment they would have grew up in would have changed the outcome of their relationship. They would have had to count on each other and work together to win their mother’s love. Kay and Arthur would more than likely have had to confide and honor each other because they wouldn’t have anyone else.
Arthur and Kay have a very interesting relationship, as well as the four brothers. Arthur absolutely loved his step brother Kay, while Kay at times could be very friendly to Arthur, but most of the time felt that he was better than Arthur. One example is when Kay would not listen to Arthur’s advice about catching the hawk. On the other hand, the four brothers fought constantly and even tried to kill each other. When Agravaine talked about their mother disrespectfully, Gawaine almost choked him to death. I think T.H. White switches between England and Orkney to show how different the two kingdoms are. The kingdoms come together when Arthur sleeps with Morgause and has a child named Mordred. My question is why do you think Arthur did not like Merlyn to tell him the future?
Both families could be considered the same when it comes to who raised them. Sir Ector raised Arthur like his own child; however, he treated Kay a little differently knowing that Kay will take over his title as Sir. The Orkney brothers would always work together when they do things, such as when they went to go kill the unicorn together for their mother. In the first book, when Kay and Wart had lost Cully, Wart had stayed behind to find the pet even though it was a pet of a servant, while Kay went back home. T.H. White may have thought to switch back from England and Orkney to tie together the stories of these two families. My question is, Was one of the Orkney brothers ever jealous of each other if their mother showed more favoritism towards one brother?
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